now, theres an easier and more thought out answer than you might imagine here, and it`s one you`ve alluded. Although you`ll want to do some research yourself to check that my understanding is correct. My understanding is that the likes of, for instance, live365 have got the relevant agreements in place with relevant royalty / collection agencies - which for a lot of what you`d be playing would almost certainly end up as what I`ve always liked to call "Phil Collins Pocket" rather than with the band, but such is the nature of "black box" monies as regards smaller artists - so this is indeed done for you. A quick check of their t and c's should shed some light onto this. What they do in order to fund this largesse I believe is to adulterate your podcast with adverts in your radio showbetween tracks. It`s one flavour of a price you pay for doing it properly. This raises all manner of questions though - what sort of intelligence have they got behind he track upload / tagging system so as to get it right? and so on? I suspect a lot of it again becomes black box money, but then to be honest if you had a weekly show on a mainstream radio channel it`s not a given your playlist would be sampled, and a lot of artists you play would end up as black box money anyway. And that to an extent is the problem - the industry hasn`t been doing it right itself, and has to an extent chosen to sue 5 year olds for downloading rather than saying "hang on, theres a lot more scope here to be giving *this* bit of cash direct to the *right* artist because we can do near automatic real time sampling of playlists in a lot of instances. It would be lovely to think that the likes of live365 were actually able to do this and the relevant royalties agencies were making it so.

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As I understand it, Live365 have everything in place to operate in the States, where it's easier and cheaper. Technically you're still in breach if you're putting stuff up from the UK, although in practice I wouldn't expect anyone to notice or particularly care.

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I`d be partially inclined to assume it`s a bit more sussed that that - if (that being the pivotal word here!) they have legitimate arrangements with the usual collection agencies in the US then this means they de facto through those agencies have reciprocal agreements with their equivalents every else. (in the same way that if, ooh, I dunno, Linkin Park get played on Radio 1, Radio 1 would pay the PRS and PPL in the UK rather than someone in ths states - or indeed whatever territory artist X was registered with a local collection agency of)

- but again i`m generalising wildly here without actually knowing precise details of quite how Live365 actually deploy their noble intent. There may be some very different belt and braces bits of legalism out there the scary wild west of internet broadcasting cobbled together whilst the usual agencies hide their heads in the sand. I wouldn`t be at all surprised actually now I think about it some more.

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Having had a quick look round their quite unhelpfully laid out site out of curiosity, It looks as though you are indeed correct in terms of the actual broadcaster being based in the UK which isn`t something I`d considered before - I don`t see why that shouldn`t neccesarily be covered within a reciprocal scheme (1) (and it may well be, but they`re putting the onus on the user - though one supposes if they are dishing out royalties the artists do get paid anyway).

(1) if you are based in the UK but because we`re not broadcasting from offshore transmitters these days your main audience is actually listening to it in the US and you register with US collection agencies and not PRS and PPL and a tree falls in the woods does anyone hear it?

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In Uncle N's situation, if I understand Live365's services correctly (and I make no claim that I do perfectly!), you would have to purchase the "Royalty Included" pricing version of one of their "Pro" packages. Have a look at http://www.live365.com/pro/royalties.html and their Pro packages area for more information.

In regard to the commentary above and below about a station/show featuring music from one nation in another, this comes down to the reciprocal agreements in place (or non-existant) between the collection agencies in those nations. ASCAP, for example, have a reciprocal agreement with PRS. So US broadcasters can feature music that is "controlled" by PRS if they (the station) have an agreement, directly or in-direclty (i.e. Live365) with ASCAP.

Where it gets trickier, however, is in regard to the artists who aren't a member of a royalty-collection agency. Technically, payment would be due directly to them.

--
SamSam / Radio Free Abattoir

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"Where it gets trickier, however, is in regard to the artists who aren't a member of a royalty-collection agency. Technically, payment would be due directly to them.

My understanding is largely that this is on the basis of decency, and indeed doing this for the love of the artist, rather than any legality - the PRS / ASCAP are as such a bit of a mafia, and have kind of established a situation whereby by being registered with them, one is legal, and if an artist isn`t registered with them it`s their own lookout. Certainly in the UK you`d never have a single problem if you`d paid PPL/ PRS for the purposes of a broadcast, regardless.

I`ve had some entertaining and lengthy chats with some poor bloke at the end of the phone at the PRS and other such organisations about precisely this issue in fact in my days of yore.

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Well, here's an interesting twist on the whole recipricol royalty payment issue, as posted today on RAIN via PCPro. Pandora will cease broadcasting in the UK, the last country outside the USA that they were reaching.

"Both the PPL (which represents the record labels) and the MCPS/PRS Alliance (which represents music publishers) have demanded per track performance minima rates which are far too high to allow ad supported radio to operate and so, hugely disappointing and depressing to us as it is, we have to block the last territory outside of the US,’ says Tim Westergren, Pandora founder, in an email to customers…

The service’s future is far from certain even in the US, where it is ‘fighting for its survival, in the face of a crushing increase in web radio royalty rates.’

Westergren admits that unless these problems can be resolved there is a very real chance that the service will have to cease entirely."

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SamSam / Radio Free Abattoir

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There was a piece on this in the Guardian a few months back - here's the online version:

Web radio faces its death knell

The article suggests that the reason royalty rates for music on the web are being pushed so high is to make up for falling revenues from the decline in sales of conventional music media such as CDs. The music biz has to make its money from somewhere, and it has identified webcasters of one sort or another as a convenient cash cow, ripe for milking.

Except, of course, that for the most part the money just isn't there. As royalty rates climb ever higher, the real effect will be to kill off music on the web.

Which, I suspect, was the music industry's real intention all along...

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Now, thats very interesting. I know they`ve had some "interesting" ideas recently (you now need a personal licence from the PPL to DJ with a laptop for instance - the club already owns a licence covering the venue for playing recorded music unless it`s from a laptop - in which case the DJ needs one as well. Say what?)

I wonder if having to pay per track implies they are now prepared to account per track royalty wise for this sort of thing? Because if they don`t, and it all goes to Phil Collins still, thats *outrageous*.

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I would have no issue with anyone using our music in a Podcast, the more exposure over the airwaves the better :D

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And that's the answer. In a scene as small as this, a fair proportion of bands will just say yes if you ask, particularly if you happen to be Uncle N and not some random joker, and particularly if you're asking about tracks they have up as samples in other places.

The only gotcha is that some bands might not have the right to give you that permission - especially if they're with a big label.

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incidentally, as far as I know an online radio station != a podcast, although the words seem to be used interchangably. My understanding of a "podcast" is that it`s downloaded (wheras yer standard online station would be streamed) thus opening up an entirely different kettle of copyright fish (it`s effectively the difference between listening to the radio and taping your favourite songs off the radio). A podcast specifically beyond being an actual download is an on demand subscription service whereby you "subscribe" to the relevant "show" and every time theres a new one you fire up your computer, ipod in it`s docking bay, or whatever and pif paf poof theres the new show sent to you automatically whilst you slept just sat there waiting for you to play it. I`m certainly prepared to accept that this may be one of those words whose meaning has become expanded to something more generic within weeks, such is the speed to technology and language these days - but whilst doing your thinking / research it might be worth bearing in mind that what you are discussing isn`t neccesarily a "podcast" proper, and doing it properly is likely to involve subtely diffences in the "rules" than those for a podcast (ie getting a comprehensive FAQ on how do to podcasts legally is not neccesarily the document covering what you need to do, and is possibly going to make it seem a lot scarier, as it involves basically giving people an .mp3 of the tunes rather than featuring them on a radio show).

As you say, most bands have stuff (even if it`s not quite the stuff you`d want at the time) on MySpace - I`m surprised now I think about it that they haven`t created some sort of "Build your own myspace show" function allowing you to basically build a streaming radio show on there out of stuff thats on there in the first place, perhaps with links to the relevant myspace page coming up in a window as it plays. C`mon Murdoch, pull your finger out!

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Much as I deplore the way Rupert Murdoch seems to be taking over large chunks of our daily lives these days, I think he's one of the few people who could really change this whole situation.

If he became convinced that there was money to be made out of running some sort of podcast-enabling service that bypasses all the copyright palaver, you can bet he'd get in there. And the music biz would dutifully touch its forelock and allow him do do it. Because nobody ever says no to Mr Murdoch!

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I think most people do the podcasts without much thought into copyright/royalty issues.. and generally get away with it because they're not for profit and many of the bands are not even signed up for royalties anyway (it's surprising how many bands out there simply don't bother with this stuff).

SBA are fully signed up with the MCPS and PRS stuff.. but I must admit I find the entire thing remarkably convoluted and difficult to follow at times.

Here's my two-penny worth.. (take with a liberal pinch of salt ;))

Assuming the podcast isn't actually used to generate an income.. you can simply sidestep most of that anyway (the royalty/MCPS whatever side, at least).

The simplest way is to contact whoever has rights to the work (the record label, usually.. or the band if they're unsigned) and ask them if you can put a track (or link, or whatever) up.. most will furnish you with permission.. and often whatever they're currently trying to peddle as their promotional material.

Of course, this may not work so well with the big name bands and labels.. then you may have to pretty much do it as if you were a radio station :)

Alternatively, you could keep things as they are and save yourself the headache :)

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The simplest way is to contact whoever has rights to the work (the record label, usually.. or the band if they're unsigned) and ask them if you can put a track (or link, or whatever) up.. most will furnish you with permission

Well, as I said somewhere else on this here thread, I suspect that would probably turn into too much of a time-consuming chore for comfort. And, inevitably, the bands I really wanted to feature would probably say no, or their record labels would prove unhelpful. I wouldn't want to end up with a second-best selection.

Bet you anything Mr Resurrection would say no, for a start!

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Bet you anything Mr Resurrection would say no, for a start!

Actually, we managed to get him to agree to allowing at least one track as pretty much public domain.. so he'd probably just point you to whatever full-length track we already have online.

(For the latest album, that would pretty much be "When All Is Said And Done")

Not perfect.. but better than nuffink ;)

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Alternatively, you could keep things as they are and save yourself the headache

I recently had a client who asked me how all this RFA stuff worked, as one of his gazillion "new" ideas was to start an online-only, streaming radio show. My response was basically, "You need a lot of money and a good lawyer. And don't ask me anything else."

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i think in simple terms, most podcasts go out without any record companies knowing about it, eg ALF were on martin oldgoths last podcast, we knew nothing about it until it happened, I have no problem with it, though i would have liked him not to have used the track he did (he picked the one with julianne regan on which is a CD selling point, and when you have spend 5k making an album you need as many sales as you can) but its out there now.

I think the majors are starting to take the view now that podcasts are like a myspace play a promotional tool, but i think they would prefer it if tracks were mixed together, so they couldnt be easally seperated for p2p swapping.

Personally, if you did one id like you to do the DJ Links :)

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Chaos Approved and the TWF podcast go out via internet broadcasting facilites of live365.com and clickcaster.com respectively. Does this mean that these fine organisations have bought the necessary licences on behalf of all their content providers?

Yes they do. It's why I use them - they sort out all the legal bumph, and that's worth the cost alone. Allegedly, they do pay royalties to artists based on specific traclk plays - which is more than radio stations barring the BBC can claim to do.

Podcasts are different from internet radio broadcasts because you download them. Anything you download is classed as an 'on demand' service and the licence is different. It's an old distinction that's been mangled to fit new technology, but there you go.

Even if you only use bands whose music is not PRS / MCPS registered, expect a call from the big boys. All you can do is assure them that you have explicit (and I'd recommend, written) permission from the artists and/or labels and hope they go away.

The whole system is entirely outdated.

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I think this is how Radio Free Abattoir works - every band and/or record label gives permission first.

But that must involve a huge amount of tiresome admin stuff. I can imagine spending days on end of sending out emails to assorted bands, then chasing up the bands that didn't reply, then sending out yet more emails asking yet more bands, because some of the first-choice lot said no. That's a road I just don't want to go down!

The service provided by the likes of live365.com looks good, although it would be nice to embed the whole thing in my site as seamlessly as possible, so it's not necessary to click away to their site to hear the tunes...

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Michael, I was very interested to read your well-written (as always) and well-researched post. Here's the information I can give you and your readers from my experience, which thus far has been fairly painless.

For anyone not familiar with Radio Free Abattoir (RFA), we offer true streaming, on-demand audio and video as well as legal, free MP3 downloads. When we relocated the show and the servers they reside on (therefore all governing law) from the UK to the USA in 2003, we had to play by US rules, which at the time were more advanced (read: complicated) than the UK's, although nearly every European nation has caught up.

Whenever a promotional audio and/or video submission is received fro a label or artist, we require that that complete an online agreement to our terms, which basically stipulate that the copyright holder will not receive any royalty payment. This is a blanket agreement covering past and future submissions and therefore only needs to be submitted once. It is "ad infinitum" but of course does provide the option for the entity to cancel the agreement at any time. (We've only had one artist/label cancel an agreement and that was due to personal reasons.)

Similary, if an artist wishes to provide free and legal MP3 downloads via RFA, we require that they complete an online agreement to our terms, authorizing us to do so and absolving us of any royalty payments.

It's not as time-consuming as you might think or fear. When a promo arrives, I know if it's someone with whom we've worked previously. If it is, I send a quick e-mail letting them know the promo was received. If they are new to RFA, I send a mail stating that they must complete our online agreement before they can be featured. When the agreement arrives via e-mail, their material gets moved from the "pending" folder to the "agreed" folder. I would estimate that 90% of the artists/labels do so within a few days. A majority actually sign-up first and then send us the goodies, due to our published submission instructions (for site visitors) or via our promo request e-mails, which explain our policies, options and services.

In regard to your comment about who to seek permission from, we cover that too in our agreement by putting the responsibility on the signee to state that they are authorized to enter into the agreement and that they shall notify us if they are no longer authorized to enter into such an agreement (i.e. they leave the band or their license expires).

None of this is fool-proof, as you might imagine, but the best way to avoid problems is to simply work with the bands/labels, tell them what you're doing and see how they want to participate. As they are (most-likely) all independant artists/labels, they are of course looking for exposure and are generally very happy to provide whatever you may ask for (within reason).

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SamSam / Radio Free Abattoir

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Thanks for that - I think you've hit on the most practical way around the maze of regulations. It might not be foolproof, but at least it's fool resistant!

I suppose the fact that shows like RFA have existed for some years now without getting sued (and without causing the the entire music biz falling to bits, either) establishes a precedent. It shows that this stuff can work, and it does not undermine the record companies, or otherwise cause doom. Podcasting is demonstrably Not A Bad Thing.

It would be useful if this position could be established legally, but I suppose that would require a podcaster to fight the music biz in court - and win. And I doubt if anyone would willingly take on that particular battle!

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Unc, feel free to use our terms and adjust them as needed. The audio/video streaming and MP3 download forms can both be found here.

And if you do a show, either as podcast or streaming, please let me know and we'll add you to the new (and still development) "Featured Partner Stations" area.

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SamSam / Radio Free Abattoir

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Letting you know via a backdated entry to stop people jumping on the freebie bandwagon...

Don't know if you're about on Monday or were intending to come to the ELR gig at The Fly - for all I know you may have decided at the Underworld we've become something you hate... but advance tickets have now sold out for the gig; so let me know if you're thinking of coming and I'll put you on the free industry guestlist. I'll have to put you down as MJ from Nemesis To Go or Starvox or something, but you'll be able to get in free as opposed to paying a tenner on the door...

Let me know either way, as I need to give the promoter a list of names...

Hope you're well, hope to see you soon.

Ben x

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I dunno if I'll be able to get to this one until late on Monday afternoon....when I'll know if I have to work late or not. So perhaps the best thing is to leave me off the list and I'll just fork out CASH if I can make it. As long as at least some of the tenner goes to the band(s) it'll be money well spent!

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